In response to GAster to feel you can cleanse yourself of painful memories through mindless destruction only seems to support the quite frankly mindless acts of many of those who took part in the riots recently. To Krasnyi you could question the purpose of any statue. Maybe the wood of the Green Man could be used more greenly(!), recycle the wood and save another tree or two!
Did you watch the clip? "Mindless destruction" seems an unduly harsh description for what goes on at Burning Man (or GM for that matter).
At Burning Man all that's burned is a structure - a "temporary church" - purposefully built to be burned at the end of the festival, along with the small pieces of paper on which people have 'let go' of their painful memories. There are similar rituals in most of the world's religions. It's still common place amongst Roman Catholics, for example, to write down a prayer and 'post' it into a box along with others later to be ritually burned. At GM it's more like a GM-themed bonfire with fireworks of course - a celebration like the 5th of November. Nothing sinister, and certainly not wanton destruction. No one is having their property destroyed against their wishes, like during the riots, which makes all the difference. And I trust GM to source its firewood responsibly.
I think you're either having me on, or you're taking it all too seriously. It's a bit of fun - something we human beings have done according to our various customs throughout history for all sorts of reasons, but chiefly, I suspect because it's nice to feel the warmth of the blaze and to watch the flames in the company of others.
To GAster it seems as though they burn the man and temple in what was originally described by the founders as an act of radical self-expression. Maybe I should phrase it as unnecessary rather than mindless destruction. I am aware of the use of burning incense in the catholic church to be symbolic of prayers rising to the heavens however I have never heard of the burning of prayers. Can you point me to any evidence of this?
Interesting you should mention the 5th of November as being nothing sinister. On this day many men, women and children stand around a burning effigy of Guy Fawkes in what represents the victory of the protestant monarch over a catholic rebellion. Lets not get into a debate about the situation at the time but there is definately a lack of appreciation that the figure being burnt is supposed to represent a man who actually existed. However this is not relevant to the Green Man since he represents the idea of growth where the effigy of Guy Fawkes represents a person.
To sloshon wood is not a needless material possesion, its a natural resource.
"Evidence of this"? I'm not looking for a heated debate such as I might find on Richard Dawkins' website. I'm a former Catholic. There was a side-chapel in the church I went to for years as a child. In the centre there was a large altar with candles on top which you paid a nominal sum to light, and with an opening through which parishioners would post their votive prayers (I think they called them). At the back there was a hatch. As an altar boy it was my duty to open this hatch, remove the folded and hand-written prayers, and with due reverence and care (never once opening or reading a single one of them) offer them to the priest who would burn them ceremoniously. I always assumed this was a pretty common-place practice amongst Roman Catholics, although it was a fairly traditional parish. Perhaps it wasn't so widespread, but I'm sure most Catholics of a certain age would be familiar with the practice.
I'm well aware of the origins of Guy Fawkes' Night, but I doubt whether anyone gives two hoots about any of that history when they go to their local bonfire or fireworks display these days. I think they're just ordinary people enjoying the warmth of the flames in the company of others, much like what happens at Green Man in that respect.
Sure the fire is "unnecessary", as are the fireworks. So for that matter is the elephant by the pond, and so are the banners in the pub, or the benches by the mainstage. You could say the whole festival is "unnecessary"...
I'm just saying we don't need to think of the burning of the Green Man as something sinister which brings to mind horror films and riots. It's a celebration and a spectacle to be enjoyed. It simply serves a decorative function, much like the original Green Men who peer down from the walls of some of our oldest churches. At least, that's how I see it anyway.
By evidence I was looking for some sort of reference. It sounds less traditional Catholic and more pagan.
I wasn't trying to educate you about Guy Fawkes but make the point that you made. Nobody engages with what they are doing. So why burn an effigy of a man?
I wasn't asking what the necessity of the Green Man was but why it is burnt. The elephant appeared but nobody burnt it or destroyed it in any way. It goes back to my first post, with the Green Man representing growth why do we see him destroyed!?
I can see that the burning of the Green Man provides a platform for what could be seen as the last community event of the festival. I just don't understand why the crafted wooden sculpture whose only symbolism is to represent growth is burnt. I doubt that any thought will have been given to what the burning of such a figure represents but hey, something different has to happen to set it apart from the camp fire held each evening and loads of festivals have fireworks...
There’s a bit of conflation going on here I fancy. The conflation is between the Wickerman and the Greenman.
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The evidence for the Wickerman is Julius Cesar’s account of the Conquest of Gaul. There is little other other evidence for this that I am aware of.
I think GAstor has a point.
It’s totally invented and inauthentic of course, but that’s the fun of it. A fire engenders fellowship and unity. It’s a nice way of ending a good weekend, of ‘burning off’ the last energy of the festival and sending everyone one off safe and satisfied. In that sense the burning of the Greenman strikes me as being an energy drain, a sump that gets all that human energy up into the air and out of the way in a safe and satisfying way.
The Greenman himself is not a local kind of thing, well, it’s sort of Saxon. There’s some lovely churches not far from Glanusk in Herefordshire that have some amazing carvings of Green men and foliate Heads- Abby Dore and Kilpeck are a case in point. It’s also questionable how ‘pagan’ he is- most representations of him appear in churches after all- as GAstor points out.
The Greenman isn’t ‘Celtic’
In local belief, as collected fairly recently, fire is more frequently associated with new year, where fire appears to represent the return of the sun in a time of winter darkness. Fires are relit then- hence the yule log.
In terms of evidence from archeology, the celts appear to have more concerned with water and dampness- springs and streams were sacred, as was the boundary between them. Bogs, in particular seem to have been sacred. Llangorse lake certainly seems to have been a very important. This is where sacrifices were made, both of goods and (ocassionaly) people. Also caves as well. Anything that could be seen as a boundary or edge between worlds.
The conflation is what my initial post was trying to highlight. That whereas a wicker man is crafted to be a vessel for sacrafice through burning, one should not burn the green man just because you have made a large wooden statue of him.
I enjoy the burning of the Green Man. It is part of the identity of the festival and also means that the festival builds to a climax rather than trailing off. The sculpture is even more outstanding for being a multi-faceted work of art. All that painstaking beauty, both before the fire and designed as a fire show. I find it jubliant and thrilling.
Obviously you're entitled to your point of view. I see what you're saying about the differences between a Green Man and a Wicker Man, but I doubt that very many festival-goers think that much about the whole thing one way or the other. We can attach whatever meaning or significance we like to it, but I suspect that that's the point - that WE are attaching our own meanings to it. For the organisers, I imagine it's just a Green-Man-themed bonfire for no greater reasons than that the festival is called Green Man and that people enjoy bonfires.
Hello there, it's a few weeks since the festival but have just been drawn to your comments...
I'm part of the team behind the sculpture of the Green Man - it's designed each year differently and intended to burn.
The Green Man Festival is a chance to get away from your habitual environment, a temporary retreat.
We try and put the spirit of the festival into the sculpture, and each year leave space for everyone to bring things with them to contribute: secrets, memories, hopes and fears.
Being away for a short time puts the rest of the year into perspective... but that short time also has an end. By burning the Green Man we mark together a distinction between where one period ends and another begins. It is a celebration of each person at the festival and of the wild. It is rebirth and rejuvenation, which are also aspects of Green Man.
I hope that helps, and going back to the original post, I really think that you can only appreciate life in the shadow of death, and vice versa.
And of course, fire appeals to something raw and wild in all of us, there's nothing quite like it to bring people together.
There's a positive way of
There's a positive way of looking at it too.
At the Burning Man Festival there's a sort of ritual burning of painful memories - it's a sort of "elemental religious practice" (apparently).
Towards the end of this clip there's a good explanation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ok-eguBjqhs
Besides, who doesn't enjoy a good old burn-up?
Yeah, I'm with you GAster
Yeah, I'm with you GAster and anyway what would they do with it? Best Green Man figure yet - majestic rather than Neptune-like.
Folk replied on Permalink
In response to GAster to feel
In response to GAster to feel you can cleanse yourself of painful memories through mindless destruction only seems to support the quite frankly mindless acts of many of those who took part in the riots recently. To Krasnyi you could question the purpose of any statue. Maybe the wood of the Green Man could be used more greenly(!), recycle the wood and save another tree or two!
Did you watch the clip?
Did you watch the clip? "Mindless destruction" seems an unduly harsh description for what goes on at Burning Man (or GM for that matter).
At Burning Man all that's burned is a structure - a "temporary church" - purposefully built to be burned at the end of the festival, along with the small pieces of paper on which people have 'let go' of their painful memories. There are similar rituals in most of the world's religions. It's still common place amongst Roman Catholics, for example, to write down a prayer and 'post' it into a box along with others later to be ritually burned. At GM it's more like a GM-themed bonfire with fireworks of course - a celebration like the 5th of November. Nothing sinister, and certainly not wanton destruction. No one is having their property destroyed against their wishes, like during the riots, which makes all the difference. And I trust GM to source its firewood responsibly.
I think you're either having me on, or you're taking it all too seriously. It's a bit of fun - something we human beings have done according to our various customs throughout history for all sorts of reasons, but chiefly, I suspect because it's nice to feel the warmth of the blaze and to watch the flames in the company of others.
sloshon replied on Permalink
I'd be a pagan if it meant
I'd be a pagan if it meant ritually burning needless material possessions on a regular basis.
Folk replied on Permalink
To GAster it seems as though
To GAster it seems as though they burn the man and temple in what was originally described by the founders as an act of radical self-expression. Maybe I should phrase it as unnecessary rather than mindless destruction. I am aware of the use of burning incense in the catholic church to be symbolic of prayers rising to the heavens however I have never heard of the burning of prayers. Can you point me to any evidence of this?
Interesting you should mention the 5th of November as being nothing sinister. On this day many men, women and children stand around a burning effigy of Guy Fawkes in what represents the victory of the protestant monarch over a catholic rebellion. Lets not get into a debate about the situation at the time but there is definately a lack of appreciation that the figure being burnt is supposed to represent a man who actually existed. However this is not relevant to the Green Man since he represents the idea of growth where the effigy of Guy Fawkes represents a person.
To sloshon wood is not a needless material possesion, its a natural resource.
"Evidence of this"? I'm not
"Evidence of this"? I'm not looking for a heated debate such as I might find on Richard Dawkins' website. I'm a former Catholic. There was a side-chapel in the church I went to for years as a child. In the centre there was a large altar with candles on top which you paid a nominal sum to light, and with an opening through which parishioners would post their votive prayers (I think they called them). At the back there was a hatch. As an altar boy it was my duty to open this hatch, remove the folded and hand-written prayers, and with due reverence and care (never once opening or reading a single one of them) offer them to the priest who would burn them ceremoniously. I always assumed this was a pretty common-place practice amongst Roman Catholics, although it was a fairly traditional parish. Perhaps it wasn't so widespread, but I'm sure most Catholics of a certain age would be familiar with the practice.
I'm well aware of the origins of Guy Fawkes' Night, but I doubt whether anyone gives two hoots about any of that history when they go to their local bonfire or fireworks display these days. I think they're just ordinary people enjoying the warmth of the flames in the company of others, much like what happens at Green Man in that respect.
Sure the fire is "unnecessary", as are the fireworks. So for that matter is the elephant by the pond, and so are the banners in the pub, or the benches by the mainstage. You could say the whole festival is "unnecessary"...
I'm just saying we don't need to think of the burning of the Green Man as something sinister which brings to mind horror films and riots. It's a celebration and a spectacle to be enjoyed. It simply serves a decorative function, much like the original Green Men who peer down from the walls of some of our oldest churches. At least, that's how I see it anyway.
Well said GAster!
Well said GAster!
Folk replied on Permalink
By evidence I was looking for
By evidence I was looking for some sort of reference. It sounds less traditional Catholic and more pagan.
I wasn't trying to educate you about Guy Fawkes but make the point that you made. Nobody engages with what they are doing. So why burn an effigy of a man?
I wasn't asking what the necessity of the Green Man was but why it is burnt. The elephant appeared but nobody burnt it or destroyed it in any way. It goes back to my first post, with the Green Man representing growth why do we see him destroyed!?
I can see that the burning of the Green Man provides a platform for what could be seen as the last community event of the festival. I just don't understand why the crafted wooden sculpture whose only symbolism is to represent growth is burnt. I doubt that any thought will have been given to what the burning of such a figure represents but hey, something different has to happen to set it apart from the camp fire held each evening and loads of festivals have fireworks...
There’s a bit of
There’s a bit of conflation going on here I fancy. The conflation is between the Wickerman and the Greenman.
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The evidence for the Wickerman is Julius Cesar’s account of the Conquest of Gaul. There is little other other evidence for this that I am aware of.
I think GAstor has a point.
It’s totally invented and inauthentic of course, but that’s the fun of it. A fire engenders fellowship and unity. It’s a nice way of ending a good weekend, of ‘burning off’ the last energy of the festival and sending everyone one off safe and satisfied. In that sense the burning of the Greenman strikes me as being an energy drain, a sump that gets all that human energy up into the air and out of the way in a safe and satisfying way.
The Greenman himself is not a local kind of thing, well, it’s sort of Saxon. There’s some lovely churches not far from Glanusk in Herefordshire that have some amazing carvings of Green men and foliate Heads- Abby Dore and Kilpeck are a case in point. It’s also questionable how ‘pagan’ he is- most representations of him appear in churches after all- as GAstor points out.
The Greenman isn’t ‘Celtic’
In local belief, as collected fairly recently, fire is more frequently associated with new year, where fire appears to represent the return of the sun in a time of winter darkness. Fires are relit then- hence the yule log.
In terms of evidence from archeology, the celts appear to have more concerned with water and dampness- springs and streams were sacred, as was the boundary between them. Bogs, in particular seem to have been sacred. Llangorse lake certainly seems to have been a very important. This is where sacrifices were made, both of goods and (ocassionaly) people. Also caves as well. Anything that could be seen as a boundary or edge between worlds.
Folk replied on Permalink
The conflation is what my
The conflation is what my initial post was trying to highlight. That whereas a wicker man is crafted to be a vessel for sacrafice through burning, one should not burn the green man just because you have made a large wooden statue of him.
circelily replied on Permalink
I enjoy the burning of the
I enjoy the burning of the Green Man. It is part of the identity of the festival and also means that the festival builds to a climax rather than trailing off. The sculpture is even more outstanding for being a multi-faceted work of art. All that painstaking beauty, both before the fire and designed as a fire show. I find it jubliant and thrilling.
It doesn't bother me one way
It doesn't bother me one way or the other. Infact, to think about it I never been to the burning. I like hearing the fireworks.
Thomas Obviously you're
Thomas
Obviously you're entitled to your point of view. I see what you're saying about the differences between a Green Man and a Wicker Man, but I doubt that very many festival-goers think that much about the whole thing one way or the other. We can attach whatever meaning or significance we like to it, but I suspect that that's the point - that WE are attaching our own meanings to it. For the organisers, I imagine it's just a Green-Man-themed bonfire for no greater reasons than that the festival is called Green Man and that people enjoy bonfires.
Oh yes.
Oh yes.
don't worry. We'll all calm
don't worry. We'll all calm down again when the students are back.
Bloody hell, that's ages yet
Bloody hell, that's ages yet - I aim to have completed two paradigm-shifting academic articles by then!
chaigertai replied on Permalink
Hello there, it's a few weeks
Hello there, it's a few weeks since the festival but have just been drawn to your comments...
I'm part of the team behind the sculpture of the Green Man - it's designed each year differently and intended to burn.
The Green Man Festival is a chance to get away from your habitual environment, a temporary retreat.
We try and put the spirit of the festival into the sculpture, and each year leave space for everyone to bring things with them to contribute: secrets, memories, hopes and fears.
Being away for a short time puts the rest of the year into perspective... but that short time also has an end. By burning the Green Man we mark together a distinction between where one period ends and another begins. It is a celebration of each person at the festival and of the wild. It is rebirth and rejuvenation, which are also aspects of Green Man.
I hope that helps, and going back to the original post, I really think that you can only appreciate life in the shadow of death, and vice versa.
And of course, fire appeals to something raw and wild in all of us, there's nothing quite like it to bring people together.
Looking forward to next year!
I'm with you on that Alex.
I'm with you on that Alex. And thanks for creating the best Green Man so far - he was majestic!